$200K Investment → $81K Tax Savings? The Oil & Gas Strategy Explained

David Wiener: You can't legally touch your W-2 tax bill unless you become a real estate professional or grind out short-term rental hours. That's the story most high earners have been told. And it's wrong. There's a completely different part of the tax code that lets you deduct roughly 70 to 85 percent of a specific type of investment in year one and use those losses to offset W-2, 1099, and business income. In this episode of the Tax Strategy Playbook, we're unpacking a real $200,000 oil and gas deal that created about $81,000 in immediate tax savings and monthly cash flow on top. And stick around to the end because we're going to walk you through three red flags that tell you an oil and gas deal is a terrible idea for you even if the tax benefits look incredible on paper. And the concrete next steps to take with your CPA if you think this strategy might fit your situation. Welcome back to the Tax Strategy Playbook. I'm David Wiener known as Mr. Cash Flow, and on this show we go beyond basic write-offs and talk about the strategies that actually move the needle for real estate investors, business owners, and high-income professionals. If you've ever felt like you're doing everything right, buying rentals, maxing out retirement accounts, but you're still writing six-figure checks to the IRS, this episode is for you. My guest today is someone who's in the trenches with those exact clients. Mark Pearlberg is a CPA and host of the Mark Pearlberg CPA podcast where he's published hundreds of episodes breaking down advanced tax planning for high income investors and professionals. He recently ran an oil and gas client workshop that showed how to stack oil and gas with cost segregation and Roth conversions. And he walked through a $200,000 working interest deal that produced about $81,000.

Mark Perlberg: you

David Wiener: of year one tax savings of roughly $3,500 a month in cash flow. That sounds good to me. What I love about Mark is he's not talking theory. He's designing those plans for W-2 earners, 1099 pros, and the business owners who don't qualify for real estate professional status and don't have time to rack up short-term rental hours, but they still want to legally slash their tax bill. In this episode, we're going to cover why oil and gas is the missing piece for lot of high-income investors. how the tax mechanics actually work in plain English, and then a detailed breakdown of that $200,000 case study. And at the end, the specific situations where you shouldn't touch oil and gas, even if the tax benefits look great for you. if you've ever wished you could offset W-2 or 1099 income the way real estate professional ⁓ do, ⁓ all the way through this one. Mark, welcome to the Tax Strategy Playbook. We're glad to have you here.

Mark Perlberg: Thanks for having me.

David Wiener: Before we get into the mechanics, I want to understand who this is really for and why almost nobody is talking about it correctly online. So Mark, would you paint a picture of a typical client where oil and gas suddenly becomes interesting? What does their income look like? What's the pain that they're feeling at tax time?

Mark Perlberg: You know, there's, I would say there's no typical client because there's such a variety of instances where we will use oil and gas to create tax deductions. But essentially, if you need a way to reduce your taxes you out of options for creating deductions and like you said earlier, if you don't have REPS status, you're not doing short-term rentals, then this a very popular strategy. It's usually high income earners, usually at least, have to be an accredited investor for most investment strategies. So if you're single 200 or married filing joint making over But what we typically find is we see a lot of married couples, usually they're married and more established at that point. And ⁓ around and up is usually when they start looking at this, but also real estate investors They really want the tax savings and maybe they took advantage of REPS status and short term rentals in the past. this year they're starting to realize that they didn't really, maybe they're not very good landlords. Maybe really the tax savings, more that their time is best spent in their careers, or they just couldn't find a good deal and they need the tax savings. They're in the highest brackets. So a much easier solution in many instances, not all instances. but they will consider investing passively in short-term rentals, sorry, not short-term rentals, in oil and gas. They'll invest passively. They don't have to do any of management. You get rid of the three T's, tenants, toilets, and trash, it's just a really great way, and it has similar tax advantages as real estate. Real estate's a little better, but similar tax advantages in treatment in that you create passive income and you're reducing your taxes in your one.

David Wiener: Most of the audience has heard about REPS status and short-term rentals. So where exactly does oil and gas fit into that landscape is the third option. Is it the tired landlord just wants to stop dealing with the three T's or who else?

Mark Perlberg: So I would say the most common thing I see is we get folks who are turned on to tax planning because they get their first short term rental or REPS status And that's like their gateway into thinking about tax reduction, especially for W-2 folks. And then when they realize that they kind of maxed out on their real estate, they can't scale anymore or they just, want to phase, they want to kind of settle in and no longer manage the rentals for whatever reason, a lot of them will pivot into oil and gas, but that's not the only reason. oil and gas to be highly profitable. I've seen real estate syndicators pivot into raising capital for oil and gas, especially what's going on with prices right now. A lot of oil and gas investors are making a ton of money. So you're also investing for the profit. And it's just a matter of what investment works for you personally. And that really involves a conversation with a tax professional and maybe a financial advisor ⁓ well. ⁓

David Wiener: So in your experience, what's the biggest misconception high income investors have about what's actually possible when it comes to offsetting W-2 and 1099 income?

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, you know, there's just not a lot of good information out there. A lot of people think that the only thing you can do is put money in a 401k if you're a full-time employee. They don't realize that there's a whole world of opportunities. And as your income goes up, are more and more tax reduction strategies out there besides just tax deferral strategies. you ⁓ and not just oil and gas. If you're high W-2, you can consider things that involve. ⁓ significant charitable deductions, obviously real estate, starting a business that has lots of bonus depreciation in it. just so much stuff out there, people it's just not common knowledge. They really just default to hiring their financial advisors to put money into a 401k ⁓ or Roth or a traditional IRA. They don't realize that they're leaving tons and tons of tax dollars on.

David Wiener: It seems super powerful to me. Why do you think more advisors and creators aren't talking about it?

Mark Perlberg: You know, I do see an uptick in a lot of stuff like a lot of social media stuff I think maybe some of the reasons are If it's real estate related, they don't make money on that They can get some of these guys can make AUMs and and get get Maybe they can get commissions on oil and gas, but I just don't think that their certifications and the more conventional paths a lot of these traditional conventional paths even explore that will offset the W-2. They're really just looking at what is siloed in their investment portfolios and maybe capital loss harvesting. They don't realize there's a whole other universe of stuff out there that ⁓ very, very lucrative.

David Wiener: I've found that doing cost segregation studies for people there are a lot of tax well most tax preparers don't really understand it very much and so they don't recommend it because they don't want to appear like they don't understand it. The tax strategist guys most of them understand it if they're dealing with real estate investors some of them are believing some of the myths that are out there. ⁓ been told all kinds of strange things from ⁓ CPAs and tax preparers. So in a minute we're going to get into exactly why these losses can offset W-2 1099 income. But if you've ever told, sorry, those losses are suspended, don't go anywhere. Let's demystify this a little I want somebody listening who's on their commute to walk away understanding in plain English.

Mark Perlberg: I'm sure.

David Wiener: how that actually gets done on their tax returns. So at a basic level, when a client invests in an oil and gas working interest, what are they actually buying and how is that different from buying a rental property?

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, so when you buy a rental property, you own a piece of real estate. You own the house and the land on that piece of real estate. When you invest in oil and gas, you are buying shares in a partnership essentially. And what we mean by working interest is you have a share in the business activity, which essentially is a handful of projects or wells that they're going to drill on. And they're going to expect to make profit on the drilling and obtaining and selling of the oil and gas from whatever projects they were doing. So the difference here is you don't really own, opposed to just buying a real estate asset, you are investing into a partnership that is gonna have assets and ⁓ is a business, is a working business that is investing and drilling into the wells.

David Wiener: And we hear that about 70 to 85 % can be deducted in year one through those intangible drilling costs. Can you break down what IDC really is and how that flows through to the tax return?

Mark Perlberg: Yes. Yeah, IDCs you our clients love this stuff because of, know, how easy it is to to make this happen. So essentially all of the non tangible assets kind of in the word. So the costs that are going to be set aside for excavating and clearing and fuel costs, you were able to deduct those even before they're incurred. So this gives you the opportunity to get an immediate tax deduction. And that's one big piece of it. what we ballpark is, depending on when you invest in the well, we'll typically hear 75 to 90 % range. We've seen it as high as 100%, especially if you invest early though, as a deduction against your W2. And all those losses when you invest, as long as you become a GP in year one, which you probably will, and you don't have to worry about this, the facilitators know what they're doing, you come in as a general partner. All of those losses are treated as non-passive meaning they can offset any kind of income, whether it's W-2, business, capital gains, interest, et cetera, et cetera. the reason why is because the government wants to encourage energy production. We need energy in this country and we need it here, which is most preferable. So they are going to reward you with that tax incentive and let you use those losses. ⁓

David Wiener: And even though you're not actively involved in the business, it can be deductions.

Mark Perlberg: Exactly, it's one of the very few instances where you do nothing at all, yet you're still allowed to take business losses and treat them as ordinary and they can offset any kind of income. Yeah.

David Wiener: that sounds good to me. So okay know my audience and I know there's somebody out there who's thinking ⁓ a minute this is too good to be true. What you tell them about the trade-offs and the risks that come with these tax benefits?

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, you know, so we have to explore a whole universe of tax planning opportunities for our clients, right? always looking at oil and gas, advanced charitable strategies, all sorts of tax advantage investments. And when it comes to oil and gas, this is actually one of the predictable in terms of tax savings. when you at this from at least first, if we look at this from a compliance perspective, it's not risky at all because those incentives have been in place since 1917. This has been around for a very long time. Now, when it comes to the economic performance, obviously, just like any investment, is potential versus and is potential to have less profit than you would expect. Right. Now, if you're a high income earner and you're writing off your investment into the oil and gas fund and you get maybe a third or more of it back in the form of tax savings, that immediate tax savings is a hedge against the possibility of losing your money. At least you're getting a good chunk back in year one from the tax savings, but hopefully you make a lot more than that. Now, another thing to touch on here, because you're into real estate that you might find interesting is not only do you treat the losses as non-passive, but when the profit comes in, it's passive. You get both bets of both worlds, like with real estate. So now you can use your rental losses if you don't have REPS status, it's not short-term rentals. you can actually see value in those passive rental losses. You can finally use it to offset the profits that come in from oil and gas.

David Wiener: ⁓ that's pretty sweet. It all sounds great in theory but I want to walk through that actual deal, that $200,000 deal. Real numbers, real tax savings, real cash flow so people can see how this works out in the wild. ⁓

Mark Perlberg: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, and by the way, we did not coordinate our outfits today. But another thing I want to add here.

David Wiener: No, we just both have really good taste.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, I think I want to answer your question little more about risk here. So if you're like, what if there's no oil in the well? What if it's a dry well? know, usually a lot of times you're investing across a portfolio of, it could be hundreds of wells, just like kind of like an index fund. So you're hedging against the possibility of one well being unprofitable. And these are highly sophisticated investors and there are all sorts of types of well funds in vertical and horizontal. So there are ways to invest in a way that is more risk-averse, where you have a more reliable outcome. And there are also ways to invest where you could have a greater skin in the game and higher upside, but you're taking on more risk. But this is stuff that they've done for over 100 years now. And they have some very sophisticated people who can make some very reliable projections of the outcomes. Actually, I take that back. Not very reliable. We're subject to price fluctuations. a very refined system and way of doing this that been profitable in many of these facilities.

David Wiener: That's fantastic. So for the audience, this is the part of the episode I'd bookmark if you're listening on audio. Let's go line by line through the numbers of that actual deal. us about the client behind the $200,000 working interest deal. Who were they? Anonymously, of course. What were they trying to solve? Was it a big bonus, a liquidity event, or just consistently high income? ⁓

Mark Perlberg: So, in this instance where we would have that type of investment, this is a client with a high W2 ⁓ to retire maybe in the next five years. it's a great way to kind of smoothen out the taxes and push the cashflow into a later year. And so it's just a high W2 who used to do cost eggs with short-term rentals that no longer wanted to manage find any more rental properties. Especially we see this with short-term rentals that particular It's a little trickier to find deals in areas where our clients have been investing.

David Wiener: my last episode I was talking to Ryan Bakke who's a tax strategist and he he made the comment that the ROI at some point has to be balanced against the ROH which is the return on hassle. I like that.

Mark Perlberg: Yep. Yeah, know Ryan for some time now and he's seen a lot of short-term rentals as well. It used to be like money in machine. You just found something and you'd run with it. But now, because the tax savings are so great, everybody's flocking to these short-term rentals. price is inflated and it's a little trickier to find cash flowing deals there.

David Wiener: Absolutely. So walk us through the math a little bit. that $200,000 deal that you were talking about, roughly how much of that $200,000 was deductible in year one for that client and what did that translate to in actual tax savings at their marginal rate? Do know off the top of your head?

Mark Perlberg: So, know, what I would say here, I would have guessed that this client, so if you invest early enough, because there are other deductions you can create in addition to IDC bonus depreciation, and any deduction is non-passive and could offset your income, I would have guessed we probably about a 190 K deduction that because he invested early enough. And unlike other strategies, you're incentivizing to invest earlier so you can... collect your cash flow earlier, right? ⁓ something else interesting. Now that oil and gas income is domiciled usually to Texas or North Dakota. And our clients usually don't live in those places. But states will also allow you to get a state level tax deduction. So it can offset your income in some states, ⁓ even York. ⁓ So yeah, was surprised to see that on a drafted return.

David Wiener: Wow. Even New York.

Mark Perlberg: We told them that you couldn't reduce your New York taxes, but then we ran it through our software and said, hey, wait a second. But anyways, between, so imagine getting about a 185 to 190 deduction from all of that. And, you know, if you were to back that out, let's say, you know, the combined federal and state tax bracket around maybe 40 to 43 % would create a tax savings of around 81,000.

David Wiener: That'll be good for anybody.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, but you know what could get better? If you really work with a tax strategist who understands the movement and all the phasing ins and outs of different credits and incentives, you you may face someone in. not only do you get a deduction, which is maybe your marginal rate times your deduction, but also you may phase in to the child tax credit. That may be an extra couple grand there. You may phase your into getting an additional $30,000 state and local tax deduction against federal. So if you bring your income below $500,000. So there's all these other potential savings in QBI that can be factored in when you really know the client and the sweet spots within the tax code that we can put in it.

David Wiener: Fantastic. So you mentioned about $3,500 a month in distributions. How did that cash flow show up over time? And how do you set expectations with clients so they understand both the upside and the volatility of it?

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, so we're not authorized to advise on the economics of investments really, we're CPAs and tax planners we will collaborate with whoever raising the funds and show what this means from a tax perspective. But we do at the prospectuses and we help them understand what's the after-tax effects based on the expected outcomes. And we usually see a high amount of the distributions in year one. So usually they're made We've seen them made whole within maybe 18 months between the tax savings and the distributions. The first two years in most funds, you'll see the majority of the cash flow from the oil and gas investments. And then it kind of tapers off. You might see a little bit of a jump up in profit on the exit in years five through seven. So that's kind of way it looks. You get a really solid immediate payoff in the form of cash flow and tax savings.

David Wiener: I could see too how you could layer this alongside cost segregation or even Roth conversions ⁓ and I imagine those interact really well with it.

Mark Perlberg: Absolutely. They absolutely do. And if you really wanted to dive deep into all the different ways you can be, take advantage of all of the savings, you use it to offset a Roth conversion. You could use it to offset the sale of stock. You can invest in qualified opportunity zone funds that have oil and gas. There's so many really unique things you could do with oil and gas. And also, like I said earlier, it pairs really well with real estate. You can use a cost seg. If you have a rental that you never did it on to offset the profits that come in from the oil and gas and eliminate the taxation on the cash flow.

David Wiener: and use those passive losses.

Mark Perlberg: Finally make you let's say you have a whole you never had REPS status and you have this whole Reservoir of unused suspended losses. It'll carry forward and offset your profits in the oil and gas

David Wiener: you don't have to sell the property and you don't have to 1031 exchange it you don't all of that stuff that's fantastic so i understand i mean it all sounds great it sounds really good but there are some very real landmines here right so in the next part of the episode we're going to talk about who shouldn't do this what what bad deals look like how to avoid getting burned so if you if you as the audience only hear the upside on a strategy like this you're getting an incomplete and dangerous picture and unfortunately that's what you hear a lot out there is is the great upside and never pay taxes again and all that kind of stuff so let's balance it out who is this not for what are the situations where you tell a client it's not a not a good idea for you right now

Mark Perlberg: Well, here's one instance. There's something called excess business loss limitation. And that's the maximum amount of you can take against non-business income. So if you're trying to offset W2, that's non-business income or interest and dividends. if have, let's say you're in a situation where you've already done a cost seg or you're considering much to invest into this, you want to factor in once you get past that excess business loss limitation, those losses aren't gonna help you out anymore until they get carried forward into the later year. So if you're really banking on the tax savings, let's say we did a cost side to offset your W-2, we already have a half a million dollars in deductions, we can't really take you very much further to offset your W-2, because we were about to max out and hit that excess business loss limitation. So that's one instance where it's not gonna help you out very much. Another instance is you look at the whole, all the other strategies, think cost seg is like, that's the low hanging fruit. Like you got to do the cost seg If you have an opportunity, you're just, you have to do it because you you invest maybe five, 10, whatever, thousand dollars. You're usually going to create tax savings as like 10, 20 X what you invest with oil and gas, you know, 75 to 90 deduction of a dollar, you know, a dollar turns into maybe 25 to 40 cents in tax savings. in year one, you have less liquidity than when you started with. So if you are looking for tax strategies that preserve your liquidity, there are probably some other strategies that are going to be a little more effective at that. And also don't invest just like anything. You want to make sure you invest with the right people. There are tons of folks promoting oil and gas and may not know what they're talking about and have excessive fees on the transaction. So there is a possibility that you may not see the return that you should be seeing in those funds.

David Wiener: So if somebody's talking to a promoter and everything sounds amazing because I've been approached by people before, are the three red flags that should make them hit pause immediately?

Mark Perlberg: So, you know, we invest in syndicated deals personally and things of that nature. What I would say is you want to look at the person, you really want to know the person who's operating the fund because a lot of the times you're going to find that when things go wrong, a lot of the times I heard once, you know, you should probably bring them on. You'd be a good guy to talk to one of my syndicator friends. Jeremiah, you invest in the jockey, not the horse, so the person running the business. So even if they have all these fancy charts and graphs that show amazing things, what about the ⁓ of the person or people running the fund? Who are these guys? These do your due diligence on the people. A lot of people forget about it. They get so seduced by all the fancy graphics and visuals and they forget that someone might be a total scam. Yeah

David Wiener: Well, they think about the deduction. They don't think about who's running the deduction, who's doing the actual work.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, you still got to The tax savings aren't so good that you'd be okay with losing your money. You still got to make money on this thing.

David Wiener: Absolutely. So if somebody's listening who wants to explore this, what would you say are the first two or three questions they should be asking their CPA or their tax advisor?

Mark Perlberg: You know, their could be helpful. Hopefully they have someone who advises on taxes. But if they have anybody who is advising on their investment strategies, you should schedule a call and just say, ⁓ your background in this? Do ⁓ have any relationships? ⁓ any of your clients been investing in this? And you try to find someone who's going to be acting in your best interest if you're looking for guidance on this. ⁓ Because if someone's raising capital, they may very well have a great intention and have a great opportunity, but their interest is in their commissions and their fees. So you've got to take things with a grain of salt and have a skeptical mindset.

David Wiener: Well, now I know one. I know somebody who advises on that kind of stuff. you know, we'll put anybody who's interested in touch with you, Mark, and you can kind of guide them in the right direction. If I remember correctly, the three red flags, and you tell me if these are ⁓ really of what people should be watching out for, if the sponsor's promising guaranteed returns or risk-free income, they ought to run.

Mark Perlberg: For the most part, could be scary. I do know of a potential fund where they have hundreds of set aside for, they call it like a dry well insurance. So in case a well is unprofitable, could pull from an insurance money set aside to the difference, but you're paying for that. You're paying for that. ⁓

David Wiener: Okay. Yeah, well, and they can't promise any guarantee, any amount of guaranteed return, you know.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, this is not unless you know you're investing in muni bonds. Nothing's I mean, you never know what's going to happen here, right?

David Wiener: a savings account. The other thing was if you can't see where the money actually goes, you know, no breakdown between drilling costs, fees, overhead, that sort of thing, that's a problem too, right?

Mark Perlberg: There should be some sort of PPM that details out what's going on with the fund. And you should be able to have a conversation to learn a little more as well.

David Wiener: And like you said, if the whole pitch is about the deduction with really no discussion of the underlying economics or the operator and the operator's track record, that's a huge warning sign as well.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, would not, you know, I would be hesitant if you didn't know anything about these guys. You really want someone with a track record. oil and gas is highly complex. Like there's so many different ways to do this. There are so many different areas and and classes of oil and gas investments. I mean, you could really go deep. You could probably write a thousand book on investment strategy for oil and gas. and drilling strategies and opportunities out

David Wiener: And this really isn't the kind of a deal you want to learn the hard ⁓ You don't want to start with something like this without doing your due diligence and actually get references and get introductions to the right people from your tax planner. So. ⁓

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, and also I recommend diversify too, just like anything else. You don't have to go all in on one fun.

David Wiener: Absolutely yes. Anybody who tells you to put all your eggs in one basket is not your friend and they're not helping you at all.

Mark Perlberg: Yeah, you know, we have a handful of people that we can recommend our clients to and our clients often will invest into both because they have different investment strategies, different approaches can produce different outcomes, different risks and rewards.

David Wiener: but they're people that you know and have worked with. Yeah, that is worth its weight in gold as far as I'm concerned.

Mark Perlberg: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, they'll invite us to come out and put our hard hats on and come to the oil rigs there. We haven't done that yet, but we probably will. I'm not in the mood to fly to Texas. know, we've seen the returns, we've seen the cash flow, we've seen how it all came together. it's nice ⁓ this point to have seen how these play out so we can speak from experience.

David Wiener: you So if you're listening to this and you're thinking, OK, this might actually fit my situation, here are three next steps you can take in the next week. Number one, reality check your profile. Have an conversation with your tax planner, your tax strategist about your situation, your income mix, your current tax bracket, what you're already doing with real estate or other strategies. So the question to ask ⁓ is, ⁓ Given my current income and what I'm already doing, does an oil and gas working interest make any sense as a part of my tax plan or am I just chasing a write-off? Second thing, confirm you actually qualify for the actual tax treatment. Before you look at a specific deal, confirm you're actually qualified for the tax benefits we talked about, working interest status, IDC expensing, the ability to offset ordinary income. The question here would be if I invested X number of dollars into a domestic working interest, how much would be IDC in year one? What kind of tax savings would that realistically create at my tax rate? And then third, as been said, vet the operator harder than the tax pitch. If you get past the first two filters and you still want to look into it, start by vetting the operator, not the tax brochure. And I can tell you that Mark's details are going to be in the show notes of the podcast. If you need some advice, I'm sure they can contact you, right Mark?

Mark Perlberg: Absolutely.

David Wiener: Fantastic. So ask, how long have you been operating? How are you compensated? What percentage of my dollars actually goes into drilling? And can I see independent or engineering or reserve reports? The right sponsor should be comfortable answering those questions and walk you through past projects that they did, both good and bad. So for the listener who just took these three steps and still looks like a good candidate, what's one thing you want them to understand before they ever wire money into a deal like this?

Mark Perlberg: You know, I think that... an entrepreneur, I say go for it. ⁓ bet your house on the outcome, but diversify. You're risks with everything you in life and every investment, but just go for it. Give it a try. See how it plays out. You'll get smarter, you'll learn and continue the journey. That's one thing I was saying. The other thing is that tax planning is not one idea. Oil and gas fit. within the picture of all the other things you can do. You can still do real estate, cost seg, all the other tax advantage investments out there might fit into the picture, advanced entity structuring. And oil and gas is a piece of the puzzle. And have someone who can help you understand how does this fit in the mix of things that you were doing to build wealth and drive down taxes.

David Wiener: Fantastic. Like I always said, tax preparing is not the same as tax strategy or tax advising. You need to do tax planning and look forward rather than just on April 15th look back at what you did in the last year and hope for the best. helpful stuff. For those of you who are listening who want to go deeper with Mark, whether that's to look at your situation or to learn more about his process, ⁓ out the links in the show notes to connect with him. ⁓ If this episode opened your eyes to a strategy you hadn't really considered before, let me ask you two quick favors. Number one, first subscribe to the Strategy Playbook newsletter at taxstrategyplaybook.com slash newsletter. That's where I break down episodes like this into simple playbooks you can review with your CPA and actually implement. And then secondly, send this episode to one other investor or business owner who you know is paying way too much in taxes. It might be their first time hearing that W-2 and 1099 income can be attacked in a different way. And if you want to compare this oil and gas play to the real estate side of the coin, follow the podcast on YouTube or any major podcast platform where we talk about all things taxes for real estate and business. Mark again, thanks for coming in and to everybody listening, I'll see you in the next episode of the Tax Strategy Playbook.

Mark Perlberg: Thank very much for your time, Dave.